ब्लैक होल का चित्र मानव इतिहास की सबसे बड़ी उपलब्धियों में से एक है

-     डॉ मेहेर वान

10 अप्रैल 2019 को जब “इवेंट होराइजन टेलेस्कोप” की टीम ने पहली बार ब्लैक होल का सच्चा चित्र प्रस्तुत किया तो पूरी दुनियाँ वैज्ञानिकों की इस उपलब्धि पर जोश ख़ुशी से झूम उठी| जिन्हें यह मालूम था कि कुछ ही समय में ब्लैक होल की सच्ची छवि दुनियाँ के सामने पेश की जाने वाली है वह बड़ी बेसब्री से वैज्ञानिकों की प्रेस कोंफ्रेंस का इंतज़ार कर रहे थे| ब्लैक होल की यह छवि कई कारणों से महत्वपूर्ण और चुनौतीपूर्ण थी| इस प्रयोग में आइन्स्टीन की “जनरल थ्योरी ऑफ़ रिलेटिविटी” दांव पर लगी थी, साथ ही वह वैज्ञानिक ज्ञान भी दांव पर लगा था जो पिछले कई दशकों में ब्लैक होल से बारे में अर्जित किया गया था| ब्लैक होल की यह छवि जनता के सामने लाने से पहले वैज्ञानिकों ने लम्बे समय तक यह सुनिश्चित किया था कि उनके प्रयोगों और प्रक्रिया में कोई कमी तो नहीं रह गई| इस प्रक्रिया में पूरी दुनियां के वैज्ञानिक कई दशकों से लगे हुए थे| अतः जब वैज्ञानिक अपने प्रयोग और प्रक्रिया की सत्यता और त्रुटिहीनता के बारे सुनिश्चित हो गए तब यह छवि छः स्थानों पर प्रेस कोंफ्रेंस करके पूरी दुनिया के समक्ष प्रस्तुत की गई, ताकि प्रक्रिया में शामिल सभी वैज्ञानिकों और देशों को सफलता का पूरा क्रेडिट मिले| पूरी दुनियां की मीडिया ने इस घटना को प्रमुख खबर बनाया, क्योंकि यह मानव इतिहास की सबसे बड़ी उपलब्धियों में से एक है| भारतीय मीडिया वैज्ञानिकों की इस महान उपलब्धि को समझ नहीं पाया| हाल ही में एक खबर सत्याग्रह/स्क्रोल की वेबसाईट पर (विज्ञान कहता है कि ब्लैक होल का कोई फोटो नहीं लिया जा सकता, तो फिर यह क्या है?-https://satyagrah.scroll.in/127307/black-hole-pahli-photo-kaise-li-gai/ दिनांक- 21 अप्रैल, 2019) पर प्रकाशित की गई जिसमें ब्लैक होल की छवि वाली घटना को इस प्रकार पेश किया गया जैसे कि यह कोई वैज्ञानिक घोटाला हुआ हो| यह न सिर्फ दुर्भाग्यपूर्ण है बल्कि निंदनीय है और भारतीय मीडिया की छवि ख़राब करने वाला है| यह ध्यान रखा जाना चाहिए कि आँखें बंद करके ‘रात हो गई-रात हो गई’ चिल्लाने से सूरज की रौशनी ख़त्म नहीं हो जाती, लेकिन बेवकूफी ज़रूर जगजाहिर होती है| 

यह मानव इतिहास की महानतम घटना क्यों है?

सन 1784 में अंग्रेज खगोलविद ‘जॉन मिशेल’ ने एक ऐसे तारे की परिकल्पना की जो कि इतना भारी और अधिक घनत्व वाला था कि अगर प्रकाश भी उसके करीब जाए तो वह इस तारे के चंगुल से बाहर नहीं आ सकता| यहाँ प्रकाश का उदाहरण इसलिए दिया जाता है कि प्रकाश का स्थायित्व में द्रव्यमान शून्य और गतिमान अवस्था में अत्यधिक सूक्ष्म होता है| प्रकाश से हल्की वस्तु की कल्पना नहीं की जा सकती| इसके बाद आइन्स्टीन ने 1915 में “जनरल थ्योरी ऑफ़ रिलेटिविटी” की स्थापना की जिसका इस्तेमाल आज खगोलशास्त्र से लेकर अंतरिक्ष विज्ञान तक के तमाम विषयों को समझने में और उनका विश्लेषण करने में होता है| अनगिनत प्रयोगों और गणनाओं में आइन्स्टीन की “जनरल थ्योरी ऑफ़ रिलेटिविटी” अब तक सही और सटीक साबित होती रही है| “जनरल थ्योरी ऑफ़ रिलेटिविटी” आने के कुछ हो महीनों बाद वैज्ञानिक कार्ल स्वार्जचाइल्ड ने आइन्स्टीन के समीकरणों को हल करके कुछ नए निष्कर्ष निकाले| इन्हीं निष्कर्षों में ब्लैक होल के केंद्र से एक ऐसी दूरी का मान निकलता है जिसके अन्दर आइन्स्टीन के समीकरण काम नहीं करते| इसे वैज्ञानिक भाषा में सिंगुलारटी कहते हैं| बाद में इस दूरी को ‘स्वार्जचाइल्ड त्रिज्या’ कहा गया और इससे जो वृत्त बना उसे “इवेंट होराइजन” कहा गया| ऐसी गणनाएं की गईं कि ब्लैक होल ‘स्वार्जचाइल्ड त्रिज्या’ के तीन गुना दूरी से पदार्थ को और ‘स्वार्जचाइल्ड त्रिज्या’ की डेढ़ गुना दूरी से प्रकाश को अपनी और खींचकर निगल जाता है| इसके बाद पिछली सदी में सैद्धांतिक स्तर पर ब्लैक होल के बारे में बहुत साड़ी गणनाए की गईं जिनका मूल आधार आइन्स्टीन के समीकरण थे| चूँकि आइन्स्टीन से वह समीकरण खगोलविज्ञान और अन्तरिक्ष विज्ञान से लेकर विज्ञान की अन्य शाखों में इस्तेमाल हो रहे थे और सटीक साबित हो रहे थे इसलिए वैज्ञानिकों में उत्सुकता थी कि अगर उन्हें ‘इवेंट होराइजन’ नहीं दिखा तो आइन्स्टीन की “जनरल थ्योरी ऑफ़ रिलेटिविटी” असफल हो जायेगी और पूरी भौतिकी में भूचाल आएगा| यह सब अब तक गणनाओं के स्तर पर ही था, इसलिए यहाँ एक सधे हुए सटीक प्रयोग की आवश्यकता थी जिसमें कुछ ठोस प्रमाण मिलें|

इस समस्या से निबटने के लिए विश्व भर के वैज्ञानिकों ने एक संगठन बनाया और एक साथ काम करने का निर्णय लिया|

इस वैज्ञानिक समस्या का विशालकाय होना

ब्लैक होल की छवि लेना की वैज्ञानिक समस्या कोई साधारण समस्या नहीं थी| इसमें कई ऊंचे स्तर की रुकावटें थीं, जिन्हें बिन्दुवार समझना चाहिए-

१)      ब्लैक होल की प्रकृति: वैज्ञानिक “इवेंट होराजन” देखना चाह रहे थे| इवेंट होराइजन वह जगह है जहां तक ब्लैक होल के आसपास प्रकाश पहुँच सकता है और ब्लैक होल द्वारा खींच नहीं लिया जाता| इस प्रकार यह प्रकाश ब्लैक होल को बाहर से एक तरह से ऐसे ढँक लेता है जैसे ब्लैक होल ने प्रकाश के कपडे पहन लिए हों| हालांकि ब्लैक होल को नहीं देखा जा सकता मगर इसके चारों और फैले प्रकाश की उन किरणों को देखा जा सकता है जो बस इवेंट होराइजन को छूकर निकल जाती हैं| अतः यह तय था कि ब्लैक होल को देखना संभव नहीं है मगर इवेंट होराइजन में प्रकाश से लिपटे हुए ब्लैक होल को देखना संभव है| इवेंट होराइजन के साथ ब्लैक होल की फोटो लेने का काम आसान नहीं था| इवेंट होराइजन में लिपटी प्रकाश किरणों को भी अपने टेलेस्कोप्स में समेट पाना आसान नहीं होता जिसे हम आगे समझेंगे|

२)      ब्लैक होल की आकाश में स्थिति: सबसे पहले तो यह तय कर पाना आसान नहीं है कि ब्लैक होल कहाँ है? चूँकि यह प्रकाश को दबोच लेता है और हम किसी भी चीज को तब देख पाते हैं जब वह वस्तु प्रकाश को या तो उत्सर्जित करती है या परावर्तित करती है| ब्लैक होल की स्थिति जानने में ही वैज्ञानिकों को कई दशक लगे| अनेकों विशालकाय टेलेस्कोपों की सहायता से अनगिनत वैज्ञानिक पूरे आकाश की निगरानी रखते हैं| कई वर्षों तक एक गैलेक्सी में कई तारों का अध्ययन करने के बाद उन्हें पता चला कि वे तमाम तारे किसी ख़ास केंद्र बिंदु के चारों और चक्कर लगा रहे हैं जो कि चमकीला नहीं है| यह गैलेक्सी M87 थी| इसके तारे विशालकाय हैं| इतने भारी तारे खुद से कई गुना भारी पिंड के चारों और ही चक्कर लगा सकते हैं और वैज्ञानिकों ने गणना की कि यह ब्लैक होल होना चाहिए| इस तरह लम्बी और थकाऊ गणनाओं के बाद ब्लैक होल की संभव स्थिति पता चली|

३)      पृथ्वी से दूरी: गणनाओं और प्रयोगों के आधार पर यह पाया गया कि यह ब्लैक होल पृथ्वी से 5.5 करोड़ प्रकाशवर्ष दूर है| इस बात का मतलब यह है कि यह ब्लैक होल M87 गैलेक्सी में धरती से इतना दूर है कि प्रकाश को इससे धरती तक आने में 5.5 करोड़ वर्ष लग जाते हैं| इसका एक मतलब यह भी है हमने जिस प्रकाश के साथ इसकी छवि खींची है वह प्रकाश इस ब्लैकहोल से 5.5 करोड़ साल पहले चला था| मतलब जो छवि हमारे पास है वह इस ब्लैक होल की 5.5 करोड़ साल पुरानी फोटो है| यह तो हम सब जानते हैं कि दूर होते जाने पर वस्तुएं छोटी दिखाई देने लगती हैं| इसी प्रकार से यह ब्लैक होल भी पृथ्वी से बहुत दूर होने के कारण बहुत छोटा दिखाई दे रहा था| वैज्ञानिकों ने गणना की कि धरती से यह इतना छोटा दिखाई देता कि इसे देखने के लिए घरती के आकार के बराबर के दूरदर्शी की ज़रुरत पड़ती| धरती के आकार के बराबर का दूरदर्शी बना पाना मानव के हाथ से बाहर की बला है| वैज्ञानिक कई सालों तक यह सोचकर परेशान रहे की कि कैसे इस कठिनाई से पार पाया जाए| फिर वैज्ञानिक इस निष्कर्ष पर पहुंचे कि यह बात सही है कि हम पृथ्वी के आकार का दूरदर्शी नहीं बना सकते लेकिन पूरी पृथ्वी पर जगह जगह लगे टेलेस्कोपों को एकजुट करके पृथ्वी के आकार का एक आभासी टेलेस्कोप बनाया जा सकता है| खगोल विज्ञान में यह तकनीक नयी नहीं है| भारत में ही गैलेक्सियों को देखने के लिए लगा GMRT यानी जाइंट मीटरवेव रेडियो टेलेस्कोप पूना के पास लगभग 25 किमी में फैला है, जिसमे छोटे छोटे कई टेलेस्कोप लगे हैं और उन सब टेलेस्कोपों को मिलाकर एक विशालकाय 25 किमी लम्बा टेलेस्कोप बनता है जो अन्तरिक्ष में दूरदूर तक फैले छोटे छोटे दिखने वाले पिंडों की फोटो खींचने में मदद करता है| इसमें कई टेलेस्कोपों से ली गई छवियों को एकसाथ मिलकर एक फोटो बनाई जाती है| यह एक पुरानी और पूरी तरह से स्थापित तकनीक है| हालांकि धरती जितने आभासी टेलेस्कोप के लिए कुछ अन्य तकनीकी कठिनाइयां थी जिन्हें दूर किया गया|

४)      टेलेस्कोप का डिजाइन: दुनिया के तमाम देशों के वैज्ञानिकों ने मिलकर दुनिया भर में फैले कई टेलेस्कोपों का एक समूह बनाया और उन्हें एक साथ सिंक्रोनाइज़ किया| एक और समस्या यह थी कि पृथ्वी तेज रफ़्तार से अपनी अक्ष पर घूमती है इसलिए छवियों में इस घूर्णन का प्रभाव भी ख़त्म करना था| इसके लिए वैज्ञानिकों ने कुछ दशक तक गणनाएं कीं ताकि प्रयोगों से त्रुटियों को हटाया जा सके| ख़ास समयों पर दुनियां भर के कई टेलेस्कोपों ने उस ख़ास बिंदु की फ़ोटोज़ लीं जहाँ ब्लैक होल होने की गणनाएं हुई थी| इस तरह कई हज़ार टेराबाईट का डेटा उत्पन्न हुआ| अब इस भारीभरकम डेटा को एक साथ मिलाकर देखने की बारी थी| इस डेटा को मिलाने का काम मैसच्यूसेट्स इंस्टिट्यूट ऑफ़ टेक्नोलॉजी की कंप्यूटर साइंस की पीएचडी की छात्रा केटी बौमन ने किया| इसके लिए उन्हें एक अल्गोरिदम बनानी पड़ी| इस प्रक्रिया में वैज्ञानिकों में बहुत ख़ास ख्याल रखा कि वह कुछ ऐसी चीज़ न देख लें जो वह देखना चाह रहे थे बल्कि वह देखें जो कि वहां उपस्थित था| लम्बे संघर्ष के बाद जब वैज्ञानिक इस बात को लेकर तय हो गए कि सारे टेलेस्कोपों की मदद से ब्लैक होल रिंग ही बन सकती है तो उनकी ख़ुशी का ठिकाना नहीं रहा|

इसके अलावा तमाम तकनीकी और वैगानिक चुनैतिया वैज्ञानिको के समक्ष थीं जिन्हें आम जनता को समझाना बहुत 
मुश्किल है| 

इस फोटो में एक प्रकाशिक अंगूठीनुमा आकार में काला केंद्र छुपा हुआ है| यह ठीक वैसे ही है जिसकी गणनाये वैज्ञानिक एक सदी से भी अधिक समय से कर रहे थे| इस छवि में साफ़ देखा जा सकता है कि प्रकाशिक इवेंट होराइजन में अंधकारमय ब्लैक होल छुपा हुआ है| हालांकि इस प्रक्रिया में तमाम बड़ी वैज्ञानिक रुकावटें थीं और ब्लैक होल की छवि उतारना असंभव माना जाता रहा लेकिन वैज्ञानिकों ने चतुराई से यह कर दिखाया| दुनिया भरके विद्वान इसे मानव जाति की सर्वकालिक सबसे बड़ी उपलब्धियों में गिन रहे हैं| विज्ञान का सर्वकालिक काम असंभव लगने वाली बात को संभव बनाना ही तो है| और चुनौती जितनी बड़ी हो जीत उतनी ही बड़ी मानी जाती है| अंततः: यह ब्लैक होल की पहली छवि है समय आने पर बेहतर छवियाँ भी हम मानव खींच पायेंगे ऐसा विश्वास है|     

Conversation with Nobel Laureate Prof. Hiroshi Amano

Prof. Hiroshi Amano is well known for his contributions towards fabrication of Blue Light Emitting Diodes (LEDs). Scientists and Engineers have always been keen to fabricate the devices which need much less energy for efficient operation. In case of light emitting sources, bulbs and tube lights are very conventional light sources, which consume very large electrical power. Light Emitting Diodes (LEDs) were assumed to be revolutionary devices since 1950s, but it was almost impossible to be fabricated commercially. A source of white light needs a device that emits red, green and blue light, these three combine to produce white light. From historical point of view, the first LED was fabricated in 1950 and the scientists were successful to fabricate diodes which emit light of wavelength range from red to green till 1960. To complete the spectrum blue light emitting device component was needed. Till 1980s, there was no efficient and commercial solution to the problem. Several scientists were struggling to fabricate efficient blue LEDs, but failed due to many technical reasons. Prof. Ishamu Akasaki and his PhD student Hiroshi Amano solved this problem by getting by growing high quality crystals of GaN with the help of metal organic vapour phase epitaxy (MOVPE) technique. At the same time Shuji Nakamura also successfully developed the GaN crystals, while working in America. The scientists’ trio was awarded Nobel Prize of Physics for their contribution toward fabrication of light sources which consumes much less electrical power. LEDs have replaced bulbs and tube-light and are being used all over the world and become the part of our daily life. 

Prof. Hiroshi Amano (Born 11 September, 1960, Hamamatsu, Japan) is a one of the inventors of “Blue Light Emitting Diodes”, which have changed the arena of electricity savings in light sources around the globe. Prof. Amano was awarded Noble Prize in Physics-2014 for his contributions for fabrication of Blue LEDs with two other scientists Isamu Akasaki and Shuji Nakamura. He obtained his PhD from Nagoya University in 1989 under the mentorship of Prof. Isamu Akasaki. He started his research in 1982 under his master’s program at research group of Prof. Isamu Akasaki on the growth, characterization and device applications of group III nitride semiconductors. The group III nitride semiconductors like Gallium Nitride are well known for its application in Blue LEDs. He became successful in developing the deposited buffer layers to grow the group III nitrides based semiconductor thin films on sapphire substrate which was believed to be almost impossible due vary large lattice mismatch (16%) between Gallium Nitride and sapphire in early 1985. These efforts lead towards the successful fabrication of ligh emitting diodes and laser diodes. Further in 1989, he successfully grew p-type Gallium Nitride and fabricated a p-n junction diode, which emitted ultraviolet/blue light for the first time in scientific history. When he started his research work, there was dearth of high-tech experimental facilities in his university and it was not easy to do research at that time. He along with his fellow students had to develop some instrumental facilities including a MOVPE reactor in Nagoya University during his research period, which helped him to understand the science and to use the resources in experimentation.

Currently, Hiroshi Amano is full professor at Graduate School of Engineering, Nagoya University, Japan, where he continues his research work on energy conversion and storage devices with a well equipped research lab. He has co-authored around 400 technical research papers till now which lead him to several prestigious Japanese and international awards including Nobel Prize for Physics. He writes on his webpage, “Our mission is to sustainably improve the quality of human life by developing sustainable devices (i.e., environmentally friendly, long-life devices with high-efficiency energy conversion) using sustainable materials and low-cost device-processing technology.” Blue LEDs are being used in Blu-Ray compact discs, HD-DVDs and display devices. Introduction of LEDs to display devices changed the world of display devices. Devices from high-tech, thin-sleek smart phones to televisions have become possible due to LED based display technology. Prof. Hiroshi Amano is known for his humility and down to earth attitude towards students and youth. He writes a message to students on his personal webpage, “If you are still lacking a dream or a purpose of your life, we will be happy to assist you to find your own dream.”

            Recently, Meher Wan got an opportunity to interview Prof. Hiroshi Amano via email. Here are the excerpts of the interview-

Meher Wan (M.W.): Your work was considered for Nobel Prize for Physics in 2014. After receiving Nobel Prize, How your life has been changed? What type of comfort or responsibility do you feel after this award?

Prof. Hiroshi Amano (H. Amano): My life changed a lot. People have started inviting me to a number of seminars or symposiums as a guest presenter. After the award, I have the chance of attending different fields of society meetings and discussing with people of the other fields. I enjoy so much for such discussions with people of other fields.  

M.W.: Let me ask you about your days of childhood. How do you remember the childhood and boyhood of Hiroshi? How did you perform in your schools? How were you feeling going to school at that time?

H. Amano: At lower school in primary classes, I was a sickly boy. I got measles, rubella, chickenpox, etc., etc. So, I was frequently absent from school. But, at higher classes, I started sports such as baseball or soccer on the advice of my parents. Then, I became healthy. Then, I became happy to go to school for enjoying sports after class.     

M.W.: Many people usually complain that basic education is becoming boring and unproductive for students. What was the state of basic education in Japan that time?

H. Amano: At higher class in primary school, arithmetic was done by using Japanese abacus. I was an inferior player, so I was bad at arithmetic. I could not remember other subjects. For me, study at junior high school was only for preparing entrance examination to high school. So, it seemed to me very boring. 

M.W.: Do you think that teaching mechanism should need any reform or modification for better understanding of subject by students?

H. Amano: Of course, I know that time and facilities are limited, but if students have time and have chance to use equipments, they should try (to understand things) by themselves. 

M.W.: How do you perceive the contribution of university professors in your scientific career? How do you remember your university days?

H. Amano: A lot. I learnt why I should study at the introduction lecture "Introduction to Engineering", in the first grade of university. (Prof. Amano said in many interviews that in his youth, he always wondered thinking, why all people study? What is the necessity of studies in human life?) Of course, I decided to proceed in research on blue LED because my supervisor Prof. Akasaki did this subject.

M.W.:What was the motivation force to work on GaN material and blue light emitting diodes (LED)? I mean there are a number of fields to work on.

H. Amano: As I mentioned before, I recognized why I should study during the lecture of “Introduction to engineering”. But, I could not find what I should do in my life. When I found the dissertation subject "Blue LEDs" at third grade of the undergraduate, I thought I found my dream. I thought I could change the world by realizing LED displays.

M.W.: What were the main challenges to work on this field at that time?

H. Amano: I did not know anything (at that time) about the field of LEDs. So, I started with how to grow GaN crystals (As GaN crystals were considered as best potential candidates for fabrication of blue LEDs).  

M.W.: Which was the “eureka point” when you were working on blue LED fabrication? At that time, have you thought that the small lab level success will change your life in future?

H. Amano: For me, eureka point was just, when I found that I could grow high quality GaN crystals by using low temperature buffer layer. But still, I could not believe that this success would change my life. After realizing p-type GaN, I changed my mind and I felt that my life may change.

M.W.: What problems did you face for this work? Any interesting story related to this instrumentation. I read somewhere that the research paper related to this work was rejected initially. Is it true?

H. Amano: It is true. Research paper based on world’s first p-type GaN was almost rejected. At that time, many people were interested in ZnSe (semiconducting material) and the GaN- people (people, who were working on GaN) were in quite minority. 

M.W.: Which scientific goal do you still want to achieve?

H. Amano: It changes and will continue (to change) until my death. As a recent subject, I can contribute to the food, water, and energy deficiency issues.

M.W.: The energy invested by you in experiments is saving a huge amount of energy every day. Device developed by you and your group has been installed around the globe till now with some upgradation/modification, how do you feel about? Have you expected the huge success of the device?

H. Amano: Of course, it is great. When I was a student, I only considered the application (of LEDs) to displays. Applications to general lighting based on blue LEDs with yellow phosphors were developed by NIchia Corporation, which accelerated the use of blue LEDs.

M.W.: You have observed various developments and changes in semiconductor industry with time for several decades. How interesting is the story this evolution?

H. Amano: People graduated from electronics engineering department are changing their focus from vacuum to solid state devices; it is very common and natural trend. So, it is a n obvious matter. In case of blue LEDs, I thought someone should do that. If nobody is to try, I would like to try. 

In my view, in recent times, one of the most important and interesting subjects is how to involve artificial intelligence into internet system.

M.W.: How do you visualize the future of semiconductor electronics?

H. Amano: Attempts for connecting the people-people and people-things by internet should be increasing. So, number of information technology based semiconductor devices should increase. In addition to it, critical issues (of 21^st century) are energy increase and information leakage problem.

M.W.: What do you want to convey to the young minds who want to opt science as their career?

H. Amano:  I would like to send the sentence, Of course, industry size of the opto-science and engineering is increasing more and more. You may have the chance to get a job. But "Please, consider by yourself".

I would like to notice that, in any item, there is durability, good in one side and bad in other side. For example, LEDs reduce electricity consumption, and increase the number of people who are seriously dependent on smart phones. When I was a student, I did believe that change of the display should be the first priority issue. In one sense, I was successful because blue LEDs are applied to general lighting systems, and in other sense, I was failed because of the increase in the number of people who are dependent on smart phones. Today, situation has changed a lot and I feel only young generation can find the route for a bright future. So, I would like to send message that "think yourself". 

M.W.: Dear professor, it is nice to have a conversation with you. Youth will surely be benefitted with your visionary words. 

Interview with Prof. C.N.R. Rao, Bharat Ratna

        Prof. Chintamani Nagesa Ramachandra Rao FRS, famously known as Prof. C.N.R. Rao is well known researcher in the field of nanotechnology. He has authored more than 1400 research paper in journals of international repute and 45 scientific books. He is fellow of several academies all over the world including Royal Society, London. More than 60 universities awarded him honorary doctorates around the globe. He is recipient of most of the major scientific awards. Recently, Government of India awarded his the Highest Civilian Award of India- Bharat Ratna. Mr. Meher Wan got the opportunity to discuss on the various issues related to science, education and scientific and technological future of India. Here are excerpts of the discussion-

MW: So, first of all congratulations to you for recent achievements, specially for the announcement of Bharat Ratna, The Highest Civilian Award of India to you. How do you feel now?

C.N.R.Rao:  Well!! I think its fine and very nice that’s all I can say. I was not expecting or anything like that, so it’s nice. Many thanks for considering me for this award.

MW:  So let’s start with some memories of your past times, how did this journey in science begin?

C.N.R.Rao:  Well!! You know, it has been wonderful sixty and odious years, since I first started my research in Banaras University (BHU) for my M.Sc. degree, that was exactly sixty two years ago or more than that. Since then, many things, of course I have been a professor, in fact, member of the faculty, last fifty four years now. So, it has been a wonderful thing. Lots of students who have worked with me for PhD and a few hundred people worked with me, so it has been wonderful.

MW: Yeah, When did you realize that chemistry is your cup of tea?

C.N.R.Rao: When I was 17 years old.

MW: So, at that time you were in B.Sc. or M.sc.?

C.N.R.Rao: I just finished BSC at seventeenth then went to Banaras to do my MSc and then I decided that I want to be a scientist. I was not attracted to become or take up an IAS exam or that type of stuff, so I decided to take up science at that time.

MW: So, why did you decide to remain in chemistry?

C.N.R.Rao: Many reasons, I was  very much excited by science in school actually, by wonderful school teachers here in Bangalore and C.V. raman of course  given lecture in our school that somehow I saw him giving a lecture, I got very impressed by that and then after that of course after my BSc in wanted to do MSc and research that’s why I went to Banaras to do part research, part thesis, part course things like that, so I went there and there you know I read a very famous book of Linus Pouling – “Nature of the Chemical Bonds”, that book was very important book for me, even now in the history of chemistry if there is one book which changed the nature of chemistry was that book “Nature of the Chemical Bonds” by Linus Pauling and I thought, I must do this kind of research that’s one reason I left Banaras and went to United States after that.

MW: How do you remember the times of Banaras Hindu University?

C.N.R.Rao: Oh! Fantastic, BHU was a very good university, at that time you know everything was DC not AC (Electricity- Power Supply). To do experiments, we had to work in night when we had to convert DC in to AC, it is unbelievable there was no regular alternating current electricity, any way in the midnight or in the morning I used to came back from the library everywhere there were lab people working BHU was a very active place in science, you know those days many UP universities, Allahabad also was quite active, no longer the case, BHU is no longer what it was, Aligarh was very good at one time, so it was a very nice place to work I enjoyed , I owe a lot to BHU I am very loyal to BHU even now.

MW: Prof. J.V. Narlikar was also student of BHU?

C.N.R.Rao: Yeah, his father was the professor of mathematics. He is junior to me in age as well as study.

MW: How do you perceive the current condition of university system?

C.N.R.Rao: Oh! It’s terrible. Universities are in very bad shape, we don’t have many universities with high standards in teaching or in research.  We have to improve and have to put in a lot of effort and lot of money to improve universities and first of all get rid of the politics in universities, bureaucracy in universities, in addition we have also to improve the facilities the lot of work has to be done and in the meantime of course, we can’t wait for that to change so we are to create new institutions, India requires many-many good institutions like this one where you are sitting (JNCASR, Bangalore) where we have outstanding facilities where young people can do very-very good research work, so we are to improve such things.

MW: I feel basic education of science is very important and it plays a key role in development of scientific scenario in the country, so how do you perceive the basic education in our country?

C.N.R.Rao: Main thing as I told you, the teaching of science at school level itself is not very good. In spite of that many young people come up, in spite of this all there is not so happy situation in school but still we have to do lot more to schools education. Teachers and teaching have not got the adequate recognition and importance in India. See, teaching profession is not respected for example I don’t know the statistics of the world, which are the countries and where teachers are given very high regard.  Number one country in this regard is Finland, it is very difficult to become a teacher there, very easy to become an administrator, here it is opposite, anybody can become a teacher. So, I think teachers should be given importance, teaching profession should get more respect and facilities for schools, lot of things have to be done and if we don’t do that in next five-ten years, India will no longer we can expect to be a powerful nation. It won’t become just by economic state, we have to improve the education, everybody in India should get a good opportunity for that schools and colleges become very important.

MW: So, does it need political will?

C.N.R.Rao:  Partly political, you know. Industries should also help. After all, all of science for example let us take scientific research, all of scientific research is supported by govt. how can that be? After all America South Korea or even China industries should contribute at least forty to fifty percent of the science expenditure for example. Education also private investment is important. At least in this state in Karnataka where we have a lot of private universities, private collages they are bit too commercial, I think we have to worry about having Harward or Stanford and such universities, they all are private. The best universities of America are private universities of course there are some govt. universities like California which is equally good but some of the top ones are private. Why do we don’t have that? Even I can mention names of some industrialists, who can easily start and easily set up with no govt. interference can be there due to privatization, I don’t know why  we have not done enough for that?

MW: What is the state of industry- academia relationship in India?

C.N.R.Rao: There is not much relationship, you know, I have done extensive research publishing tons of papers for last fifty and half years but I have never been approached by any Indian industry for help. And there is a lot of foreign interest in it, my research is being used quite a bit in industries abroad not in India. Because Indian industries are not quite based on hi-fi technology they are based on technologies which do not require modern science they manage with some old stuff, now things are going to change and if India is to compete with other countries then they will have to support science they will have to support universities more. It has become the necessity of these days and I hope they will do something in this direction.

MW: You have contributed remarkably to scientific research in our country, so what are the great achievements of Indian science according to you?

C.N.R.Rao: Well, there are a few achievements. See, for example, in India whenever we have mission oriented science or technology project like atomic energy or space, we have done great, whenever we have been given well defined project to build reactors, rockets etc, we have done well. Where there is no new science involved or application of known science but that type of projects oriented or technology oriented missions have succeeded fairly well. Where we have not succeeded is real science. Real science means physics, chemistry and biology done in small laboratories that are the ones that give progressive background. Reactors or space science is based on the concepts evolved by the ordinary people, working in small ordinary laboratories like you and me, that’s the one that made science what it is today. Small lab level science should be supported more. Big science has always been supported more, like atomic energy and space, small science in universities and other labs have not had that much of support. But now, even if you give money, our universities are not in such position to use that money to improve. There is also too much otherwise politics, I don’t want to say go in to politics as I am not a politician, on the other hand total bureaucracy and other things don’t allow science to thrive in many of our education institutions, but IITs are all okay, but even IITs, how come one of our IITs is like MIT? They should be like MIT, but they are not. It is not just money, so we have to, that’s why I said, we are facing grave problems where we have to improve in a very big way. Individuals do, there are few individuals are outstanding as far as people in Harward but institutions are very few as best in the world, one, two or three, not many but the few individuals have done extremely well internationally. But that number is very-very small, even I can count in fingers them.

MW: We have started with Prof. J.C. Bose, Prof. S.N.Bose etc.….What went wrong in the mean time?

C.N.R.Rao: Don’t count that names, J.C. Bose was different, he created science; he was the first great scientist of modern India. In 19^th century he discovered the coherer, he should have got the Nobel Prize. S.N.Bose and others are different, they did little research rest of life they didn’t do much. See, personally speaking I only respect those scientist who do science till the last date that’s why I am admirer of J.C.Bose. Of course Raman did wonderful physics and Ramanujan did great mathematics but he died in very young age. However, many others also did great works, but J.C.Bose was scientist till last day. All the professors with whom I worked very well known people of America or UK like Prof. Mott with whom I am associated is also a Nobel laureate and at the age of 93, he is still publishing papers. Personally, I like such people who are really dedicated, you know, I still publish papers like a young man, in fact I give a competition to young men to work and compete with me.

MW: I have seen it in your lecture actually, few days back in Indian institute of science at a union of material scientists.

C.N.R.Rao: Oh! Were you there? How did you like that?

MW: I liked your work about hydrogen generation through artificial photosynthesis for energy applications. I liked it much. If we talk about materials science we legged behind in micro-revolution but in nano science and technology this is not the case….

C.N.R.Rao: Yeah, in nanotechnology we are not doing too badly due to targeted funding. What happened, we have funded many institutions through the “Nano Mission”. Until “Nano Mission” came, there was electron microscope in Kolkata only in that whole region. So because of that some results have been obtained.  Now, India is showing reasonable results in Nano science and technology because micro electronics we did nothing. But in all aspects of science, very few scientists are on frontier and that’s unfortunate.

MW: Much credit goes to you for “Nano Mission”.

C.N.R.Rao: Only “Nano Mission”.     

MW: What type of support our scientists still need?

C.N.R.Rao:  Mere money would not help. We have to create institutions.  See, for example, you give a lot of money to some educational institutions, they are not able to use that money, because of local conditions bureaucracy, politics whatever. I don’t know, is it same in all universities but I was told it is very bad generally many places. We have to improve that part of infrastructure and everything in universities. In addition, like IISERs on the other hand we have created are outstanding. If we can create few more good institutions like IISERs they can give us a boost and in the mean time we can improve our universities and we will do that.

MW: Media can play a very important role in highlighting the scientific achievements.

C.N.R.Rao: Yeah. Media has done almost nothing for science. You see the TV program you will start depressing, they will show murders, rapes and this kind of stuff or politics, very rarely science has been figured in the value system of the Indian society. In Indian society science come at the bottom, I don’t know why. See china is different; I just got a letter just half an hour before in a formal letter being induced as a foreign member of the Chinese academy. They invited me for a function; I will have to go there. Anyway, they are so organized I mean they are so proud to be Chinese and everything is so different from here. We are not so well organized we are not so nationalistic somehow we are paying a price for it.

MW: So, I feel science communicators should play an important role in this direction.

C.N.R.Rao: Of course, Science communicators can, media also. Suppose media decides to make science as important thing people will listen to that, because look at television every day and night we are blaring all kinds of thing but never education, science when did you see last program on science on TV.

MW: There may be reason behind it; we teach how to do reporting on politics, crime but not how to do reporting on science? Is it so?

C.N.R.Rao: No! No! This is not the reason behind that, after all nobody teaches you how to communicate all the rotten things, many things you learn yourself. It depends on the interest. In china, are there people who taught them? No. They give importance, Chinese give; South Korea invited me to give a lecture in a major meeting of scientists. South Korea is fantastic, I would say in all the little countries South Korea has done best. They got the freedom at the same time as we Indians got in 1947. Look at what they have done see they give amount of importance for education, scientific research. It is unbelievable.

MW:  Sir, you are chairing the science advisory council to prime minister.

C.N.R.Rao: yeah, we have done many things, I will give a book to read to see what we have done, there are a lot of important things we are concerned about.

MW: Yes, I will surely read, please mention some important issues here, Sir.

C.N.R.Rao: It’s a very large list you should read it, I can’t mention all here, but IISERS were created by us, Ramanujan fellowships, improving scholarships to research students, again we are going to improve it, many such important things. Creation of IISERs is very obvious example; you know getting this big computing power for India. Govt. has just given five thousand crores to improve the hyper computing. In computation, you know India does not have good computing power; china has very high, America of course has very high computing power. So we want to have some computing power so that young people like you can do computing in a big way, so many such things we do.

MW: We will have highest number of youth in the world.

C.N.R.Rao: I tell you the future belongs to you. Even, I agreed to see you because of that; otherwise I may be wasting my time. Future belongs to young people. Sixty percent of India is below thirty and thirty five years. Even imagine, after thirty years later when Indian population become 1.5 billion there will be more young people, that is the why I am in worry. We should work out a plan, well architectured plan for education, progress and employment opportunities for young people, until we do it we will be in very bad situation.

MW: How will we plan for it?

C.N.R.Rao: That is a very big question, I will not go deep in this question as it will need another many hours to discuss here, but I have been requesting you that you should read this book and govt. should appoint a visionary group to think on what should be done for younger generation in next twenty years but they have not done yet. We should do that I have been telling them. You know, that question is very serious to work on; it is not like an education commission. We have to chock out the program for the youth as soon as possible in India.

MW: As I have mentioned that I listened your lecture in IISc recently, you have shown very new research done by your group on hydrogen production through artificial photosynthesis. You are very actively engaged in research in spite of you administrative and other engagements, your public life, how do you manage it?

C.N.R.Rao: Most of the time I do only my research. Other things are my overtime. I work very hard, I get up in 04.30 am in the morning everyday so by the time till normal working time, I do 2-3 hours work. I spend much time with my student. I write papers with them, I actually sit and work with them so that we get maximum amount of research output, we optimize our effort. I write a lot, I write a lot of books, review papers. But in addition to it a little bit, I contribute to our country in various ways too, now I am not in regular administration as before I was president and director of Indian society of material scientists, now only I am asked for advisory.

MW: still it is a mystery to youngsters like me, how do you manage your time?

C.N.R.Rao: See, time management is an important thing, you know, Michael faraday has a very famous statement, he said-

What is it, that can be made short or long,

What is it, that can be compressed or elongate,

What is it, that can you enjoy or detest,

What it is, that god almighty thought so precious,

to give us limited amount of it,

That is time….

You know how have to use it. 90%of the people in the world do not know how to manage time. They waste a lot of time. I try to use it. I don’t have people come to chat; you are only an exception today. I just do my work. If I don’t have such work, I read something.

MW: Finally, my last question, what do you want say to youngsters?

C.N.R.Rao: I tell you, young people should be left alone to follow the path, they want. They should not be forced to go in to engineering etc.  They should do whatever they like; they want to be poet, economists, scientists doctors, whatever they want, but they should not give up their passion. At least few of them should have high level of passion; they are the ones who save India. We don’t need a lot of them, 5-10 % of the population is enough and unfortunately that is not happening, people are forced to go to engineering, everybody in Bangalore goes to engineering, science colleges are being closed down, this is bad, very few goes to economics, etc, only leftover go for that. We should not be like that, all professions need very good people, As India need to come up in all areas so young people should not listen bad advice of fool people like me and they should do what they think is best with full passion. Even I have done that way, my parents allowed me to go BHU very far to here to do MSc, they never told me do this do that, wonderful parents I had. I owe a lot to them because this freedom of thinking and freedom of working is very important for young people. Second, I think three important qualities should be retained by youngsters inside doggedness, perseverance and tenacity, a little intelligence is also useful but, that comes afterwards. You must not give up after all.

MW: It is very nice to talk to you sir. Thanks a lot to you for such visionary words.

C.N.R.Rao: Same here; Best wishes to you too.